How did you meet each other?
We knew each other when we were kids, just hang-- hanging out in different--
-You grew up in the same neighborhood. -True. I hung out in his neighborhood--
-Were you on Kenmare or...? Kenmare. -On Kenmare.
And I was on Prince and-- and Elizabeth and Spring Street.
So basically, he's the only one over the years that, uh,
in a sense, that knows where I came from and who--
whom I knew and knows that world,
and that led to the pictures we made.
[soft jazz playing]
How long was it before you got together with this, for The Irishman?
-Casino, how many years was that? -Casino was 22 years.
-You too. -Jeez.
[laughter]
[Pesci] Oh, my God.
[De Niro] I remember I was-- how impressed I was at how seriously you took it,
-'cause you wrote a-- a long treatment. -Yeah. Yeah.
And-- And, um--
But this, uh... I Heard You Paint Houses,
-that is an amazing book. I mean... -[Pesci] Yeah.
And you mentioned it to me first up at your... your place up in New York.
-I gave it upstate when we were talking. -When we was talking, and you said,
"We're gonna do this movie," and...
-But I read the book a long time ago. -[De Niro] You had read it.
[Pesci] Guy brought it to me on the golf course.
-[De Niro] Interesting. -[Pesci] The guy even told me then,
"You guys are gonna make this movie someday."
-Wow. -I said, "Yeah, good. Okay. Bye."
-[laughs] -And then it came-- No.
-I thought the same thing too in a way. -Did you?
That wasn't really the original intent
of us getting back together and working again.
Uh, but that's where it eventually, by process of elimination,
and interest, and--
[Pacino] What's so interesting is that this is different
in the sense that it's real.
[Scorsese] Mm-hmm.
[Pacino] It's about our world,
-our America. -[Scorsese] It happens to play out
in the context of organized crime, and that sort of--
But that's just the context.
-It's really a picture that, ultimately... -[Pacino] That's right.
...as we grew older,
we're able to look at this world, this context,
-and these characters... -[Pacino] Yeah.
...with the humanity of people who are together, close,
loyal to each other, love each other, and then, there has to be a betrayal.
I know how you feel, Frank. Trust me, I know how you feel.
I told you before, we tried everything to help him.
You know that.
You tried.
He brought this on himself.
It just seemed to fall into place for our age.
-[De Niro] Yeah. -It was strange.
And so the whole picture's more intimate and personal.
It's-- It's got a big canvas,
but it st-stays with the three-- the three guys.
[Pacino] The three guys. And yet, it's a reflection of the times.
[Scorsese] It's like having this grace to be able to make this film
because, uh, it-it seemed to fit perfectly with the characters, you know?
We didn't even really have to talk much about these characters.
-Yeah. -Um...
[Pesci] Especially when Al and I had some scenes together...
-Yeah. -...that I had read. I said, "Oh, God."
-[Scorsese] I know. -"I hope he doesn't start blowing up at me
the way I know Al can blow up, because then what am I supposed to do?
-Am I gonna blow up back?" And... -[Scorsese] Mm-hmm.
And he said to me,
"You don't blow up at all in this scene."
And I said, "Great. As long as he doesn't blow up at me--"
-No, no, it's out-- it's out there. -It's out there, you put it.
"Fuck those guys. Blah, blah. You tell 'em, 'Blah, blah, blah.'"
It's like that, it wasn't directed at me.
You said, "Should we do an ad-lib thing?" I said, "I'll do whatever you want,
but I think he wants you to blow up a little bit."
I can't help but think, I'm sorry, but is there another reason or something?
This is my union! What do you mean, another reason?
This is my union!
It's a reflective film.
-It's a film of an older... -Yeah.
-It's like a chamber piece in a way. -Yeah.
It's got the action and everything else. It's got the scale.
-[De Niro] Mm-hmm. -Yet, it all should go on the rhythm of,
in a sense, the way we think now, where we look back on time.
And it was perfect for this, uh...
n-nature of this material.
-You know? -To see how long it is,
did you think about that at all in the structure?
-Well, again... -It's, "How does it play?"
...today's audiences
and the venues they see these films,
-they see these things, it's all changing. -Yeah.
We're in the biggest revolution since, uh...
-uh, the advent of sound in 1927. -[Pacino] Mmm.
And I just took a chance. I said, "You can't make it for anything.
You can't make it for this specific venue, this..."
I said, "Let's make it."
-It's like a commitment to this picture. -[De Niro] Yeah.
[Scorsese] And if you want to see it,
it's really spending a lot of time with these people in that world.
Watch it. There's a lot of tough guys around here. Did he tell you?
[chuckling]
-You're not afraid of tough guys, are ya? -No.
I didn't think so.
So we talk about the, uh...
the characters as much as talking about...
They're real, for one thing.
-Yeah. -[Pacino] They really existed,
-these three. -[Pesci] Which makes it a lot easier.
[Pacino] It does help.
Well, unfortunately, our characters were not alive.
But it-- it does even help when they're alive.
-[Scorsese] Yeah. -You can talk with them,
-be with them, hang with them. -[Scorsese] Sit with them.
-[Pesci] Your character was famous. -[Pacino] My character was famous.
-[Pesci] You had a lot to go on. -[Pacino] I had so much footage.
[Scorsese] You were listening to his voice a lot?
-It was great. -[Pacino] Yeah. It helped.
I mean, the idea of research now,
the combination of photos and reading, and then the real person you're seeing,
boy, it really-- it really makes an impression.
[De Niro] What's sort of great about the story
is that this triangle, these three guys,
it's a classic story about loyalty,
-about brotherhood and betrayal. -[Pacino] Mm-hmm.
But betrayal for a reason
-that people can understand. -Necessity. Yeah, necessity.
I mean, it's this crazy relationship
-when you think about it. -I know.
-They sleep in the same room. -[Scorsese] You have to as bodyguards.
Are you gonna have him out in the next room if something happens?
In the hallway? You're gonna have him there?
[laughter]
What I was interested in is how Bob was speaking in narration.
It's as though I were to talk about how it was when I first got here.
It really presented such a reality.
It's like, this really happened.
He's there. And-and-and it's just, the guy who's narrating is there.
-He was there. -[Sheeran] It was like the Army.
You followed orders, you did the right thing,
you got rewarded.
But as you say, though, you two guys had been playing these characters,
and as you get closer and closer,
you didn't even rehearse. You know what I'm saying? It was--
-We didn't rehearse. -It basically-- something happens that--
We have to remember, yes, it's based on real people, but...
-who knows what the story really is? -[Pacino] Right.
And what you pick up on is the truth of a relationship,
all three.
Russell is interesting because it was just the opposite way than we normally...
-[laughs] -See me play?
-Yeah. -Yeah, you told me,
"You're not gonna be like the gangsters you always play."
The old-timers spoke to the old man.
The old man talked to his son Jack, and he told him...
don't forget who the fuck he owes.
I had said to him, "If I-- If I don't play that part,"
-I said, "I'll play Tony Pro." -[laughter]
[Pesci] He said, "No, I don't want you playing that part."
-You put him with him. -[Pesci] I understand.
You got Tony. You gotta deal with Tony. The reason why he-- he hangs on,
uh, to his life is because of you, at that point.
Who knows what really went on?
We don't know. This is a version thereof,
so to speak, but the truth is-- the truth is in the relationships,
and the truth is in the-- in the relationships within that world.
[Pacino] Jimmy Hoffa was the most popular,
-second to the president at that time. -[Scorsese] That's right. Yeah.
[Pacino] We forget that.
[Scorsese] And you forget about the unions and what it took to get working guys
a decent pay.
He just got mad at one point with the whole thing with the Kennedys.
And then you do that scene where you say,
"He's never gonna forgive me for giving money to Nixon!"
[laughter]
Oh, my God. What had you got yourself into?
Any move you make, it's a disaster.
And the character, the way it's played,
"I'm gonna be fine."
And you-- But that look,
you know he's not gonna be fine. [laughs]
Remember that scene where I-- where I'm asking Bob
-to knock off Tony Pro? -Oh, hilarious.
You think Russ would... would do something about this guy?
Ah, that's complicated.
It's complicated.
He says, "But you see, you have to understand.
I built this thing."
-[laughs] -"I built this thing. This is pure.
This is progress. This is visionary."
And he said, "No, no, I'm sorry.
-He's-He's a made guy." -He's never gonna go for it.
-He's never gonna go for it. [laughs] -He'd never allow it.
"Look, I'd kill him myself, but I'm too well-known."
He says, "I want to clip the motherfucker myself, but I can't."
[laughter]
It's crazy because they're talking about someone's life and killing someone.
No, it's a matter, in a case like that, in that world,
-it's a matter of elimination. -[Pacino] That's it.
-[Scorsese] He's gotta go. -He's in the way.
-Really in the way. -Yeah.
It's unthinkable.
Oh, yeah, but after that conversation you have with, uh... with Tony.
-I'm done. -[Scorsese] "Conversation."
-[Pacino] My goodness. -[Scorsese] Which doesn't go well.
[Pacino] You let the old guy fight.
-[Scorsese] Yeah, I know. [laughs] -[Pacino] These kids jumping on me.
-[Scorsese] Stephen was jumping on him. -Oh, my God.
-Tony Pro hated him. -[Scorsese] I know.
-The real Tony Pro hated Jimmy Hoffa. -The real Tony Pro hated him.
Boy, did he hate him.
And he wanted to kill you a million times himself.
They started out as kind of together, and then it just split.
I mean, power.
It was power.
[Scorsese] And-and-and Tony, what? He has the power of the Mob behind him.
But you got the union. You created that union.
[Pacino] That's right.
[Scorsese] Who's this guy to come in? Why? Because he's a gangster?
-[Pesci] Poor Jimmy didn't understand. -I know.
[Pacino] He didn't understand.
He had a vision of how things are, and he believed in...
[Pesci] I know he did.
I don't think he ever thought it was gonna happen to him ever.
[Scorsese] No. You say, "No, they would never dare."
-They wouldn't dare. -Don't--
-Don't say-- -They wouldn't dare.
-Jimmy-- -Please, Frank. Come on.
Don't say they wouldn't dare.
[Pacino] And then...
-[laughter] -[De Niro chuckles]
-They have their ways. -[Scorsese] Yeah.
Then people ask about, well, the disappearance of Hoffa.
I don't really know.
I mean, this is according to the book, Charles Brandt.
This might be as good as any.
The point is, he disappeared.
[Pacino] That's right.
The theories that he-he-he wound up in a-- in a drum
somewhere on the East Coast is ridiculous, you know.
And it's such a simple story, you know.
[Pesci] Well, what's funny is that...
my character that put him next to you and everything like that,
he tried to save you so many times.
[Scorsese] Many times. You wouldn't listen.
[Pesci] Jimmy didn't even know how many times he tried to save him.
He didn't want it, and he knew it was on him eventually, you know.
-So it was really interesting. -When it comes to him and him,
at a certain point, he's gotta say, "We tried everything we could."
-[Pesci] "We tried everything." -Yeah.
-You just wouldn't listen. -[Scorsese] "That's the life we're in.
He has to go. That's it."
Amazing.
You didn't say that. You never say, "He has to go."
[Pesci] I never said it. Never say a word.
-"It is what it is. Tell him what it is." -"It is what it is."
You're gonna have to talk to him and tell him.
It's what it is.
What it is?
What made you think of the, uh...
-computer and the age things? -Oh, the computer thing?
What happened was that once we had the script, at a certain point,
the scenes, the flashbacks,
which almost comprise, for Bob, like, half the picture,
would have to have been played by, uh, younger actors.
[Pesci] Younger actors.
[Scorsese] I said, "What am I gonna be doing? I gotta explain everything?"
-[Pesci] Ooh-hoo-hoo. -Here, you don't have to explain. [laughs]
[Scorsese] It's about behavior. It's how you sit, how you stand.
It's how you say hello to somebody, how you, you know, how you, uh...
digress in a conversation, so to speak.
And so, we're shooting in Taiwan, and Pablo comes up to me, from ILM.
He said, "You know, I'm working on this thing
of making people younger... in the pictures."
I said, "Yeah, I heard about-- I know you're doing it in Star Wars.
You're doing it in all the other effects films."
-Yeah. -I-- And he said, "Well, you know,
your whole thing on Irishman, it's the first time this will be done."
And I said, "Wait a minute, wait a minute." I said...
"This is a good idea."
I said, "The only thing is, if I have you guys,
or anybody, in-- in the scenes in this kind of film,
talking to each other,
and you have tennis balls on your faces..."
-You know what I mean, Joe? -[chuckles] Yes.
-[Scorsese] Yeah, I think that loses... -[laughter]
-It's hard to-- -And you know, seriously...
You know, you feel--
-It's hard because... -It's hard.
...to put those things on anybody and tell them to go make a speech.
Yeah. And they showed me, and it's more like--
almost like an automaton of some kind.
You have all kinds of equipment. I said, "The whole thing is
they need to see each other and they need to play off each other."
I said, "Come back when there's no tennis balls."
And, um, he came back. He kept coming-- He was there anyway.
But he kept coming back, and he said,
"I've worked out something where the markers would be invisible."
-[Pesci] Yeah. -[Pacino] Wow.
[Scorsese] "And it would require three lenses on the-- on each camera."
-[Pesci] All the cameras. -[Scorsese] Remember the cameras?
We had to work for nine million cameras.
I mean, then-- We like to use two cameras when we work,
-all the time. -So we did two cameras, imagine.
And then with all of the other stuff, it's crazy.
-It was all new to me, I mean, he just-- -[Scorsese] Me too.
[Pesci] They talk--
-[laughter] -No, I'm not--
I'm not talking about the dots.
-Oh. -I'm talking about,
you know, working with two cameras and things like that.
I was learning so much from... from you and Bob about all of that,
then he comes in with these things, and I say--
He says, "Joe, don't look in the camera." I said, "Which camera?"
-[laughter] -We got 12 cameras out here...
[Scorsese] There were three lenses on each camera. Which lens?
We said, "Well, you're looking in the lens."
[Pesci] Yeah, I remember I was walking down the hall on one thing,
and you said, "You look like you're looking all around."
I said, "Well, I don't know where to look. I'm walking.
I don't want to look into any of those lenses."
Well, then I got in there, and I saw your problem.
-[laughter] -Sometimes I say,
like, walk across the screen. It's hard.
-Yeah. -To be-- You know, you're walking,
I say, "Wait a minute. Am I walking right?"
[Pesci] If you're walking towards the camera
and don't want to look at the lens, what lens?
-[Scorsese] I said, "Jeez, okay." -[Pacino] Well, it was really something.
It was shocking when I saw Joe, uh...
-when I was in Lucas', uh, complex. -[Scorsese] In Skywalker?
-Yeah. He told me about this. -And then, he was showing all these...
great things in films, all these animated things,
and they were amazing.
And then he says,
"I just want to show you a little bit of what we're doing in The Irishman."
And on the screen, it was...
Joe Pesci comes on the screen.
And I thought, "Is that Joe?"
I'm like, "Is that old--
-old film of Joe?" Seriously. -[laughter]
There was something in the very, uh, essence of the... of the film
that just looked like this is something new.
-Yeah. -And I wonder how it's gonna--
What's the difference between this and makeup?
Well, okay.
I mean, we've accepted certain looks in makeup.
Like when Dustin Hoffman did, um, Little Big Man. Remember?
-Yeah. -We did the old age Dick Smith.
And everybody knew that was makeup, but they knew it was Dustin,
they knew it was the character.
-[Pacino] Yeah. -Um...
Then you had, like, John Hurt in, uh...
uh, Elephant Man.
-[Pesci] Mm-hmm. -Yeah.
Okay.
He's in there somewhere. [laughs]
-Yeah. -He's still doing it. He's in there.
[Scorsese] So what's the difference, ultimately,
when you could take something and mold it, um,
and recreate,
well, necessarily, not entirely recreate, but, um...
-use the CGI as makeup? -[Pacino] Yeah.
That was the big turning point.
-That was the thing that changed it. -Yeah. That's the big thing.
And also, these guys, they did it in such a way-- I--
Yes, it was a little confusing with the several cameras and the lenses,
but once we got past that,
once I figured out where you were supposed to look... [laughs]
It's-- It's a-- a worthy experiment, 'cause that's where it's gonna go.
[Hoffa] You wanna be a part of this fight?
Yes, I do, sir.
[Hoffa] Would you like to be a part of this history?
Yes, I would.
Whatever you need me to do, I'm available.
It was so important to have him at different ages say, "You know,
-you have to stand straighter now." -Oh, God. Yeah.
-Yeah. Yeah, yeah. -[Pesci] "For this section,
you have to talk a little faster, a little higher.
You know, you would-- you were talking different in those days.
And then, when you get older, you slow down."
-I know, that's the weird thing. -So, it was all these things.
-Yeah, buddy. -My man. And him too,
-always up my ass about something. -Well, he always is.
The first day of shooting with Al. Now, here's Al...
and we never crossed paths, we never worked on a film together.
And here we are, gonna work on a film together.
So, first day of shooting with him, and he's playing Hoffa,
and he's watching the Kennedys win the election.
He hates them.
"These goddamn Kennedys." This sort of thing.
And he gets up from the TV. His family's there.
-Jimmy, the kids. -Him and all the bullshit problems
-he put me through already. -Jimmy.
[Hoffa] I gotta go. You don't expect me to look at this.
No, I don't, Jimmy.
[Scorsese] And I-- You know, it's the first time working with him, so...
he gets up, and it was good. The dialogue was good.
It was like, "Hang on, I'm getting out of the room" Bang.
He walks out. And I said, "Good, great. Let's do that one more time."
And he does it again.
And then I noticed, uh,
Rodrigo and, uh, David Webb come up to me, and, uh...
they come up and they say,
"He's supposed to be 49 in this."
[chuckling]
I said, "What's wrong? They say, "He's-- You know, it's slow.
-He's getting up slowly." -Yeah.
I said, "You tell him."
[laughter]
"No, you have to tell him."
"I'm just working with the guy. It's the first day, first shot."
You get it. So, I went over, and I said, "You know, Al,
uh, he-he's gotta be 49 in this.
[De Niro chuckles]
And so, when you're getting up
from the chair, it's gotta have more..."
-[laughs] -"Know what I mean?
You're gonna go into the kitchen. You're not gonna stay in that room."
-I was doing 51, wasn't I? -[Scorsese] Yeah.
The next take-- the next take, he yelled, "Fifty-two. Sixty-five."
You know? [laughs]
We finally got it.
But it was acting to be aware of, uh, posture.
-To be aware of straightening, everything. -[Pesci] Exactly.
[De Niro] Now, I was going down the stairs.
There's one scene where I walk down the stairs.
So I go down two or three steps,
and... I-I went down the steps, and-and Gary came over.
"You gotta be a little more spry about it. A little more..."
-Oh, yeah, I remember. -He said, "Let me show you."
And he did it. Uh, and he was right.
You know, I had to, like... [snaps fingers]
...skip down the steps, you know, not just the way I would do it.
-But what's the difference-- -There's a difference.
What's the difference in taking that and saying,
"You're doing Richard III, you have to move a certain way.
Ah.
-[Scorsese] You follow? -That's right.
It's acting. Your whole body then has to act. It's extraordinary. You know?
Uh, you really do it, or you do, uh, you know, um, Awakenings.
See? Nobody had to tell you when you did Richard III.
No, let's do it again. I wanna do Richard again.
-[Pesci] You did it yourself, see? -[laughing]
And you're trying to put the whole film together in your head.
I forget that you have to go through...
wh-what you go through as actors. I just forget it and, like, I expect--
"Can you do that again?" They say, "Marty, the guy just went--"
[laughs]
You know. And then--
But in this film, we really had to take that into consideration,
-especially shooting times and... -Yeah.
...um, how we utilized--
Remember, there was very-- We had very--
Uh, like, a walking lunch, usually.
-Yeah, yeah. -To get all of our energy
within a certain amount of time during the day.
Can they do anything about that? Say, for instance,
we went off a little bit, and we were looking like 65
-instead of 50. -Yeah. Yeah.
-Can't fix your acting, though. -[laughter]
No, that's...
We can't fix that. Sorry.
[laughter]
-We live in hope, you know. -I-- No.
I mean, we can fix the back a little, maybe.
-I'm an old man. Give me a break. -And it's gotta be subtle.
I didn't think I had to do this anymore. You know?
The intention was to make it
-the best it could ever be. -[Scorsese] Yeah.
-[De Niro] State-of-the-art. -[Pacino] Yeah.
[De Niro] That was the whole... whole thing.
It's like, you don't notice it. It's the oddest thing that's happening.
[Scorsese] That's the thing.
That's-- With Joe, when I saw him, it's like you didn't notice it.
-I just said, "That's Joe." -[De Niro] Yeah.
[Pacino] You know, well, I think they got old footage of him or something.
[Scorsese] That would be interesting to see juxtaposed with other images.
[De Niro] Yeah, yeah.
Who are the other people
-who get, um, uh, this done to? -[Scorsese] You know, it--
-There are other people in scenes with us? -No, you three.
-Just us? -[Scorsese] Yeah.
-[Pacino] Wow. -[Scorsese] There are other people that,
makeup took care of that to a certain extent.
-[Pacino] Yeah. -[Scorsese] If you see you guys in 1983,
-you have a certain crew with you. -[De Niro] Yeah.
[Scorsese] And maybe one's missing. There's another guy who took his place.
Uh, he's got his...
Uh, you've got your wife. Joe is with you.
He's very specific about those things,
'cause I remember when we made Raging Bull.
-[Scorsese] Oy. -[Pesci] In the arena,
he stopped shooting and he said--
He called everybody, and he says, "There's a guy up in the row there
who has a watch that is not period."
-No, but it was so obvious. -[De Niro] Yeah.
-It was so obvious. -To who?
Well, the thing was, I just know that it would be--
And at that time, it wasn't digital. You can't go in there.
-[Pesci] It was so funny. -You know, um--
That's what I'm saying, even with this. I'm sure that...
even as we changed our ages,
and people around us, whatever they did, he was on it.
Aside from the-- the power of the film or the-- the way the film is,
the-the-the-the art of it,
also the very technique,
-it's gonna affect careers... -Well, I think-- Yeah.
-...and other actors, actresses. -Absolutely think so.
[De Niro] We'll all be able to act for another 30 years.
-[Pacino] Wow! -[laughter]
-[Pesci] Eh... -[Pacino] Sorry about that, Joe.
-[British accent] I don't think so, Bob. -[laughter]
-I really don't think so. -[Scorsese] But it's true.
Frank, don't even think about it.
-I don't keep my mouth shut... -[Sheeran] I know that.
...for anyone.
-I know that. You know that. -I know you do.
-They don't know that. -Well...
That's who I am, that's what I am, and that's what I'm gonna do.
[Pesci] I can only say, in my case, as I get older,
I can appreciate...
everybody here at this table a lot more.
Oh, yeah, it's...
I mean, you, I can appreciate what you do.
These guys took me out of the gutter, basically.
-[Pacino] Yeah. -[Pesci] Brought me back.
-I can appreciate everything a lot more. -[Pacino] Mm-hmm.
[Pesci] And I see everything a lot different too.
That's another reason to go on and work more.
-You know, in a lot of ways. -That's what happened on this.
That's what happened on-- Once we finally settled,
and I saw his reaction when you presented the story to me...
It was really strong and emotional. I said, "That's where they'll tap in.
-We have to-- Then that's real." -Yeah.
"I could get onto that and we could do something.
And where the hell is it gonna take us?"
"I'm not sure," I said. "But I think I know. I think I--"
And it was-- It's a matter of aging.
I don't know, people may disagree when they see the movie,
but, uh...
uh, you see things differently.
Do you think you've gotten better over the years, too, Marty, at doing it?
-At your job? -[Scorsese] Mmm...
-Would I-- -N-Not that you've gotten better...
-But I know what you're saying. -That's a matter of--
[Scorsese] I think what happened is that
I began to realize that I've done a lot of things over the years,
and I had a certain energy and a certain way of thinking and editing
and designing edited sequences and that sort of thing into play.
Like, Raging Bull, you really have it where the dialogue scenes are set,
and all the other action scenes are... cameras flying everywhere.
And I kind of did it. I did it.
It was almost like everything was, uh, documentary-style filmmaking,
which I really like that you do.
-[Scorsese] Yeah. -But besides that,
you leave this whole feeling through the movie.
You get this feel. You-- you did it from Mean Streets.
[Scorsese] Yeah.
[Pesci] I saw it years later, and I watched the whole movie,
and I said, "Wow, it's the feeling of the neighborhood
and the characters and the whole thing that he does so well.
He's done it in every one of his fucking movies."
-[low chuckles] -"So, he's gotta know what he's doing."
That's why I said to you, "Do you feel like you've gotten better at that?"
-No, I think it's distilled now. -Because you don't question yourself.
It's distilled, and it's a medium shot, it's a close-up...
-Jeez, it's amazing to me. -It's-- That's it.
I mean, the point is that you really get to look--
Ah, it's a funny thing. You--
When you're faced with, uh, how to do a narrative bit in a film,
I find I don't really know.
I find you learn everything again, every picture,
almost every setup, you learn again.
That's it, you know? You're going into a battlefield.
You gotta figure it out, and you're the guy you're fighting. So...
Yeah, but you feel more confident.
-You have more confidence... -[Scorsese] Y-Yeah.
-...that you know what's right. -I think I'm getting more, in terms of,
like, we really blasted out like in Hugo in 3-D and everything.
We really had a great time.
By this point, it was a matter of, um, the essentials.
I thought the essentials are the characters
-in this piece and that world. -Yeah, same thing.
It doesn't matter if you're sitting in this booth or...
-Right. -...you're in the car.
These guys, they could be anywhere doing this stuff.
So there's an anonymity around them,
but they're the force that drives--
It's like a tragic force.
You know, it's a very--
I-I had to find-- I had to find a way not to get in the way of that.
-[De Niro] Yeah. -I-- You know,
some may disagree when they see the film, but I-- that's what I did.
And ultimately, every movie you make, it's a learning experience again.
[laughter]